Artsy Engineering Radio
Artsy Engineering Radio
Product Management and Engineering with Guillaume
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Artsy's Group Product Manager Guillaume Delgutte shares his path to product management at Artsy with Artsy Engineering Radio host Anna Carey. They discuss product manager and engineer collaboration, Guillaume's experience with improv and how that's informed his work as a PM, and how to remain both humble and confident as a leader.
Hi everyone, Anna Carey here from the Artsy Engineering Radio, I have a special guest today I'm talking to our group Product Manager, Guillermo Delgutte. Guillaume, h w you doing today?
Guillaume Delgutte:I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. First time I'm doing a podcast I think so we're quite excited about it
Anna Carey:really excited to have this conversation with you we've done a couple of episodes now with other product managers of the company and they're definitely some of my favorites to break out of just talking to engineers so yeah, looking forward to this conversation with you. So yeah key on my left to have you kind of introduce yourself and maybe talk a little bit about how you got to Artsy how long you've been at the company that type of thing.
Guillaume Delgutte:Oh, wow, we start directly with Frankie topic Do you also big story of how I got to Artsy or as a short story
Anna Carey:I can with a big story I don't I feel like I'm gonna miss something if we go with the short one.
Guillaume Delgutte:Okay, fair enough. So yeah, young, the youth group Product Manager Artsy on them, kind of like cleaning or car marketplace group three three, like the zoo teams that are looking at or product page or transactionally owners who also tools that we are providing galleries on on auction houses. So as you can basically sell some artworks on on Artsy. So that's about my job. Oh, I got to Artsy I think that's the second part of the question. It's actually a funny story to be honest on I think I will raise some eyebrows when I will disclose like I got here but I was basically working for a company on it was not a great cultural fit for me at the time on so basically after a year I started looking for for a job on you know, when you are looking for a job you are a bit rusty you need to like train for some interviews and so on to finally like get going on. Basically Artsy reached out on I didn't know anything about Artsy at the time. Like seriously absolutely nothing. Also, I was just like, okay, I just gonna take it for the sake of like, working out I will say in terms of like, like getting getting ready to like have other interviews. Um, I started like the process on I started meeting with some of the smartest people I've seen and I was really like, quite like Mind blown at a time I remember meeting with Sarah as it is no object of engineering at Artsy I remember like meeting with any or at of data I remember meeting with with some each time I was having a conversation I was like, wow, this person Zeus works I really like first super fun. But on top of that the Z gonna kick my butt seriously from a pure like learning standpoint on AI we really learn a lot here on this people are by far way smarter than me on this dumbass person is basically that the situation you want to be in as a professional I feel on so at first I really took out see as Okay, I just gonna train for the interview on by the end of the process. I was like, I need to work out. I need to work with all those folks out just way smarter than me I going around so much stuff on it's going to be like super fun. And to be honest, like it was the right decision on that's why I basically go good to art.
Anna Carey:Amazing. I don't know why we would raise eyebrows at that. That's such a great story. And I agree with you that being the being the dumbest person in the room at your job is the easiest way to grow really fast. Yeah, yeah,
Guillaume Delgutte:it is on the I've been learning Tron since I joined Artsy, I can tell you that.
Anna Carey:Amazing. And how did you get to product management? I mean, it's something that I've been really interested in for a long time. I've talked about on the podcast before that I originally was working in communications and PR and Artsy before transitioning into engineering. And I was considering for a time trying to transition into product management and learn a little bit about how the different paths you can take to get there. And it's really fascinating to me to talk to other PMS at the company about their path to arts, sorry to product management. And I am really interested to hear how you kind of got into this field, because I know there's a lot of different routes that can take you here.
Guillaume Delgutte:Yes, that's a that's a great, great question. So what did I became a product manager? I i think i there like I would say praise three ways of coming into product management. The first one is You do an MBA specialized in product management on you basically become Product Manager after or something like that are similar ways you you work on the business side on you develop like your business expertise on at some point we need some people to bring that business context on we need some people who really like help brings a context to the engineering team also unknowns that I would say very likely soon big trends that we can see in product management, in my opinion, with people that started talking to the customer on like customer support teams on this type of stuff on at some point they develop certain skills for aggregating that feedback concern on zero natural transition to natural. So last one on that suppose that I took is coming from engineering, actually, I will say that's free, like maybe the easiest pass in a way for product management. I studied engineering at university also, I studied everything around New technology. So it was some class from computer science. But then like your computer or working out of like electronic devices on so I studied your service electronics on your electronics is only working based on like some quantum physics properties basically, on switch. It's purely like component physics on I also studied a bit of that. Also, during University, there is something that I realized very quickly is that I actually was very bad at coding, like get out science in general. But I was way more interested or curious about all the application around them on also very quickly, I basically was when when we had like group projects on CERN, I was not asked God person doing like crazy out coding on Swan, I was really impressed by Zeus Fox, but I will just be like basically honoring also stuff that these folks won't run. So like project management presentation, bringing some context on or this type of stuff, which finally is like a lot of it is is related to the jobs that I'm doing today on so that's why I kind of started on that my first job was really business analyst technical business analyst on, I was working for that big b2b provider in the in the travel space called among us. It's what we call the global distribution system. It's really a company that aggregates all the content in the world from RCR lines on making it available for Holzer big actor in the web that we know today such as kayak, Expedia booking.com, Priceline on so on. So I was working for that middleman on it was very complex system, lots of back end on, you had a lot of synchronization to do between all the different teams, there was like an API, like defining the API defining a business case on turn on. So that's that. So basically, I started my carry on. So from then, from there, like first walk on small API, and then you will consider API's on then you work on the orchestration of an API for an airline or for travel agent on you basically, like through all the way you climb the ladder, basically, also all the way up. At some point, I got hired by one of our clients at the time that was Priceline on that's where I started reworking a bit more on the b2c side where you introduce that part of product management that will be really like user needs user testing, a B testing all this type of stuff on there was really a great learning for me at Priceline. I really on all of this on then I moved to Artsy where I am today, basically. So classical pass, I would say through product management from technical business analyst all the way up to politics.
Anna Carey:Yeah, I think the technical piece is, especially as an engineer, it just seems to me because the context that you have on our work, and like the empathy that you're able to have for the engineers on your team is pretty in, in light, pretty unparalleled. If you compare it to people, probably from other backgrounds. I mean, I'm lucky that the pm on our team is really technical, and I think really does understand the work that we do, which has not always been the case. But yeah, do you think it gives you an actual level of empathy for the engineers that you work with?
Guillaume Delgutte:I definitely admire engineers because I know I can't do their job basically. I know I will be like always quite impressed there. After I think it's I will say it's a two edged sword sword in a way because I also can be extraordinary for engineers especially on everything that is orchestration of AI on you know, like which cell needs we should be triggering first on son I know I can be sued. Key key here on. Like, I pray, I probably been a bit annoying to some engineers in the past on very challenging. But in the other hand, I also think it's really helpful to to your point, because I, I will also build a certain on patterns of complexity. And I think that's often the mistakes that we are we are doing like, Oh, we can just add that on the app or the web page on it's like, surely straightforward. It takes a week on. Like, I think I developed a bear or something of like that. No, actually, I was out of work on the back end to do on next two phases type of that on on the on a sink here, it's actually helping you a lot.
Anna Carey:So again, what do you think makes for a great collaboration between a product manager and an engineer? Since you do have some experience on both sides?
Guillaume Delgutte:Yes, that's a great question. So I think first two, three are songs, the collaboration is relationship of influence, basically, because the product manager is not the boss of the engineers on I think that's often the mistake that some pm are doing. They come they say, okay, that's what we need to do shut up on code basically, on I think that's a fundamental fundamental, it's, it's the wrong approach. On I think that if you want to have a great collaboration, you should consider that your engineers to not work for you. But they are here to serve like a poem Zebedee on, I think that's one of the key today of the relationship between a product manager on the engineering team, if you really want the team to, to outperform in a way, they need to be bought in the poem space on the need to be bought in, in basically a version that such rough suggesting photographs. So we say that spray like the first one. So second one is to really understand well, the role on villain a non metaphor for chosen basically, also, as a PM, I think it's very important to be respectful of like, the engineers are here to bring a solution on you should not come on, tell them what to do. You should still face user need problems on basically, you should always consider that the engineers are the smartest people in the room, basically. Because honestly, engineers, I love engineers, because they are no DS engineer, they are just newbies, they will cut out all the BS that you're going to bring on. So you should always have that assumption, when you talk to an engineer on you should always consider that they will think about a solution that is better than what you had in mind. On I think if you start having this approach with engineers on on really involves them very early in the product development when you are already doing some exploration about Okay, what evolution we can bring to the platform. What are some of the pain points of use on son is the audio you involvement, the better on I think that will really help in the in the collaboration. And so then it's also really the burden on there is a lot about like the storytelling that you are bringing to the table along. I think an important part of the pm job is to be able to bring that that that storytelling, it's we are we are storytellers PM, you should consider yourself as a storyteller on Mars and project manager more than, like, yeah, you are here to tell a story on it better be good. So your engineers Albert in on xenu like to sum up some products
Anna Carey:with? Yeah, I think that that's to me, I agree. The most important job that a pm has coming from an engineering perspective is Yeah, the ability to draw that connection between what I'm building and the work I'm doing every day and a broader problem are solving value we're bringing to a user, our goal that we're going after our mission as a company that we're going after, I think that that is a part of the role that I feel like we don't talk about so much, but is so important. And yeah, to me, the way that we structure product orgs at Artsy and I know a lot of other companies have this as well, where the product manager is not obviously like the manager of the people on the team, and is a leader in many ways, but not the manager. And I think having that like storyteller role. And not like you said not sort of being in charge of the engineers or not being in charge of the implementation decisions and that sort of thing creates a really nice balance.
Guillaume Delgutte:Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, don't get me wrong, you are leader on you answer the face of the team as a product manager often, but you are not here to take all the decision on you need to understand that you have extremely talented people Aren't you on the other side that is more developed in certain skills and you it will be the case with a designer, they know better like UX and news they know better you eyes and you also interaction with the user, they just know that better. Same for an engineer, they will be able to like bring some better assertion better architecture for the product, they know better than you on same false data scientist, when you have one or two on the team, like you can do as many that analyzes that wrong, but the truth is, they will do a better analysis and you on on. So really your your role is that orchestra master on you need to really know when to love rates, outstanding skills that you have in your team. And that's very important.
Anna Carey:Yeah, how to leverage all those strengths together. And I also think it's a lot of humility, but on both sides, not just on the product manager side, but on the, on the part of everyone on the team. I love kind of like the non hierarchical nature of product team in sort of this like agile setup that we have, where it's quite flat, like the our managers aren't on our teams at Artsy. And yes, of course, there's like more experienced engineers and less experienced engineers. But the role that I play as an engineer, you as a product manager, a designer, someone from the data team, we all have different strengths that we're all kind of trying to combine together towards one goal. And I like the idea of the product manager as the orchestra, the orchestrator of all the different strengths on the team. I feel like it's it's definitely, I would guess both an art and a science.
Guillaume Delgutte:Yeah, I guess we can say that. Yeah. Yeah.
Anna Carey:Something that I was thinking of when you're talking about this is and I'm curious if this is if you think this is related or not. So during our team off, say that we had a couple of weeks ago, you led this hilarious improv workshop, you had actually, I was part of it. And I was hysterically laughing the whole time. But I still do not quite understand what the actual rules that this game was that people were playing, but I was laughing a lot. So yeah, I guess you do improv outside of work? Is that something that you started recently? Or have you been doing it for a while?
Guillaume Delgutte:Oh, yeah. My favorite topic. So I studied improv when I moved to New York City, so about three years and a half ago. So at the time I was I had like some personal struggle I remember on I basically decided to like press the reset button for my life on I basically changed job I moved out of Boston to New York City on Yeah, like I arrived in the city I didn't know anyone on but I was very excited at the same time on at the time, I really felt like I needed a way to express myself on I wanted to do acting on so I started looking for some acting class in the city and I actually found one in French. Yeah, New York is really amazing for that really everything even French acting class life,
Anna Carey:So niche. and in case the listeners didn't pick up on this Guillaume is French.
Guillaume Delgutte:I think as a Frenchest after after Francois or Louise, maybe. So, I was really interested in in doing acting with that club. So I looked at that class on Saturday, the acting class was full. On the only ones that was available was an improv class on it was scary, like crazy scary to me. I couldn't imagine myself doing improv. But I was like, Hey, you know what, you you are just in this new city. Like, you just need to, like, move on, like, accept the challenge, basically. Also, first time I went there, like, I almost peed my pants. It's, like, so stressful. It's so stressful. But after the first session, it was addictive. It's literally addictive. You have a shot of adrenaline when you do it. It's really amazing the feelings that you can get when you start doing a small scene that you feel like went well, it's really amazing. When you you found yourself with you on you like, you have a great moment. It's truly truly amazing. So yeah, I've been doing it since doing some show every like three months about in Vegas like bars in the city. But yeah, like I've been loving it, to be honest.
Anna Carey:Wow. I want to come to one of your shows. But I one of the reasons I wanted to bring this up is that something that I observed when we did this activity as a group, this improv activity that you led was this kind of ability to be really receptive to what you know you had that you had to work in pairs and basically act through a scene that was sort of unfolding in front of you with this other person. And I got the sense that you really had to be very sort of listening and intuiting, what was happening with your partner, and what they might say next. And it seemed to me a skill that that might prove helpful for our product manager. Is that accurate? and other also, is there any other connections that you've been able to make with your work and improv and being a product manager?
Guillaume Delgutte:Yeah, I love that question. I think you're totally right. To be honest, I think, for me, improv has been extremely helpful in my day to day job. So one of the first things with improv, is that you always need to be listening to your partner on that skills is extremely also important for the product manager, you need to listen to your user, you need to listen to all your stakeholder to try to understand what's going on, on table two on to these unable to, to bring a solution to them that is fixing that problem on so that is really like the first key skill that I think is is really helping me on a day to day basis on that I developed with wisdom. The second one on that's one of the key rules of improv is you should always say yes, that's the most important rule with improv. Always say yes. Also, the exact size that where you are you are referring to on that we are doing that day was in exercise where you have a person that can't say no, on they can't ask any question on they just have to say yes. at anything that is brought up by their partner, on that's the exact size that we are doing on, I feel like that is also something that is extremely helpful on a day to day basis, as well. Because as a product manager, you will have any type of requests, you will have any type of situation where you might be caught off guard on being able to like just say yes, at first being like, Oh, yeah, tell me more about it. Oh, yeah, I'm always like, trying to first tell the class session is actually super helpful. The SEL skills that I seen is really great with improv that is really helping me on a day to day basis. It's finally that point that I was making earlier around storytelling. I think that is really helping me to build the right entity for user. But also, I have the right storytelling, when I'm talking to the engineers are the different stakeholders, the companion son, where I can really put myself in situation, I will act, I will play the user on I will display all the frustration of the user with what's going on. I think that's a great way where I can cover information that is easy, basically, to build a non petty or that person when I'm talking with legs, which member of the team on so finally, that will really help in that evangelization of use of problem that is really needed on that history, part of the job as a product manager. On top of that, is just add a little bit of fun on we have a good laugh with the team on so it's just a bonding moment also, in this case,
Anna Carey:yeah, I feel like I feel like we could use some more roleplay at the company. Definitely the issue of being able to really empathize with our end user, whether that's a collector or a gallery is something that I feel like there's room for growth there and how to really connect that to people on PDDE and I feel like roleplay would really help.
Guillaume Delgutte:yeah, yeah, I think so too on. I mean, it's an old technique in marketing to talk about your target by by being like, Hey, this is Walker use a, her name is Brenda, she's 42. She is working in that type of industry. She loves to go running. And that's really like a basic marketing technique. improv, allow me to do it on the fly basically, on this is really great. Like, in any situation, I can start doing it.
Anna Carey:Does it help with your confidence, too? I think that I mean, it's not super important for every role on a product or but I think particularly PMS need to be able to sort of manage a meeting and manage a room and I would think that improv helps with that too.
Guillaume Delgutte:Oh, yeah, actually, that's a very good point. It helps a lot. Don't get me wrong. I still get like jitters on stuff like that before I have to speak in public or when I need to do a presentation in the company but when you are on stage doing improv you, you feel the pace the vibe in the room, on basically you need to adapt your your your acting based on that. If the urgent stuff too. be bored, you need to throw jokes you need to flip the script change, change the narrative. On I think it's the same when you are doing a presentation. In a company, you can feel when your audience is bored on on you can feel like when you when you need to change your video scripts on on the to catch your January Jones on Yeah, improv is definitely happening with.
Anna Carey:Yeah, I mean, I could even see metaphors of kind of being iterative and thinking on your feet relevant also for product development. I want to switch gears a little bit and talk briefly about this role that you have as group Product Manager. What does that mean, exactly? And yeah, what is what is that kind of how does that sit in our organization for PMs?
Guillaume Delgutte:Yes, that's a great question. So basically, in the past, we had a bunch of product manager on Well, just one team on were all basically driving your part of the product. But so as we are scaling the organization right now on we are moving from like five product team to 12, or 14 product team. In the next. like, yo, basically, we realize that a lot of Isaiah Johnson we're working on, were actually quite interconnected on in order to nuts, adding like a team taking the election honors of team taking Kupriyanov the action for user, they were really your needs for a next high layer to bring basically that image at on that overall strategy that is leaning towards the same vision in the company. Also, we introduce good product or hire, that are basically an area that is overseeing several product teams that are basically tackling some user needs that are in the same realm in the same phase of the user journey on tools that have a lot of connection with each other. Also, that So my role basically has been has been created on that. So what is that I'm trying to, to understand today, because it's it's still new for me. But basically, my role will be to overseeing these different teams, drilling the right vision for the team, and at the same time, on making sure that basically, we are leaning towards that vision in the most efficient way, with the best strategy spread across all the origin on that. That's basically the way I see my role. It's really like making sure that we are all going in the same direction. On zen, there is obviously a bit of like, coaching for some of our more junior Product Manager.
Anna Carey:And this is all the team's oriented around the collector experience. Correct.
Guillaume Delgutte:So we have three main products group, we have a product group that is called collector. Also, that group will be focused on everything that is top of the funnel for us. stickiness of the app brings the right tools to collector so they can use your app every single day on Zell also taking care of everything around selling artwork. So as a individual collector, you might have a piece that potentially you want to sell on. So that loop is focusing on on that part of the funnel. On my side, working on the car marketplace on so called marketplace is really the middle on bottom of the funnel in the purchasing experience, but also everything around partner tools. So we'll be working a little bit on matchmaking, we'll be working on product page, as a product page, everything that is related to transaction on Artsy. So we have three main way of transacting today. One is a stunning ecommerce experience, like we know in every website, one is mobile conversation between galleries on collector on on the last one is really that bidding experience around auctions on so we are going to take care of all this experience on of course, a transaction is about a collector but also a partner on so we make sure to have also the right tool on the partner side. You know that there was an interference because you are working on this.
Anna Carey:That's true. That's true. I am working on our partner facing products mostly. So yes, that's really kind of deeper in the funnel real purchase transaction experience. Yes, yes. Yes. It's really both bottom up. Nice. What's the transition been like for you moving into this more leadership type of role on the product in the product org?
Guillaume Delgutte:Yeah, it has been a it has been like an improv show. I guess. You know, you don't really know what's coming at you on you. Just try to figure out on the fly. It has been an amazing learning experience to be honest. First, I'm super lucky. Because I have really amazing people helping me in that role to drive that, that organization. So on on, I have a great group of PMR. So working with me. So I have to say, I think I'm a little bit spoiled in that regards. But after it's really a lot about like trying to understand basically, in this group today, on what needs to be healed on how you engage or the team on, like, criminality for for everybody on on. So today, there has been a lot of like workshop with some of the folks to try to understand like, okay, who watches the broader vision that we want to build for, for satire? on after it has been like, some coaching for some of the pm on that has been quite challenging. I won't lie. Because coaching is a lot about bringing some solution having like some brainstorm with some of the observations with team around how to make this or that better. But the truth is that sometimes you don't realize that you build a lot of tools to to intuitively, but no, you need to actually teach them on coach people on share about legs with tools that you build intuitively on, on Switzer a lot about putting some worlds on some intuition on natural frameworks that you have been using on how to engage your team, or to bring consensus. How to take a decision fast on this is, yeah, like I've been, I've been working a lot on like, trying to explain like that process that I've been building naturally when I was driving myself.
Anna Carey:Yeah, I think something that you and I have talked about before is going from, yeah, like you said, intuitively, knowing the processes, you use the framework, you use the tools you use as an individual contributor. And then once you move into a more leadership type of role, and you're a manager, once you start articulating, the way that you do things, you realize, Oh, this is a framework that I can share. But how do I share it? How do I codify that into something that more junior people or other peers on my team can use as well? I think that that's a really interesting part of the transition that that you've mentioned.
Guillaume Delgutte:Yeah. On it's definitely one of the I think that is the most challenging one. For me. It's basically realizing that we know more than what we know, basically, that what relies on, on how to put words on on it on. It's, it's a lot of introspection on on trying to, to study some interactions that I was having naturally on studying them to put some words on them. So it's actually quite, quite fun.
Anna Carey:Yeah, I mean, it's interesting that a couple of the themes that I think you've talked about today, one is humility, and realizing that you're not the smartest person in the room, and that there's so many amazing skill people around you. That's really important, but also being confident and bold enough to say, I do know what I'm talking about. I do have these frameworks that I can share as a leader, there are valuable things that I've developed over the years that I can share with my peers and team members. And I think that's such an interesting balance. I mean, it really in any role, but I feel like particularly in product management.
Guillaume Delgutte:Yes. It's Yeah, yeah. It's it's funny because as I was saying earlier, as a product manager, you average the face of the team sometimes on sometimes you need to be beat a selfie with the team to ensure everyone to show that you have a vision and so on. very same time, it's like about, like, being very humble, taking everybody, everybody like skills on opinion, into balance on on finally, which is super helpful here is Yeah, like, always consider that people on your team are smarter basically on on so sit on part is fuels a common pool of understanding on that is something that I think has been working pretty well for me is the more you share some information with so many smart people in the room, basically, what is obvious to do in general, like stand out, in my opinion, when you do that in general, you don't have as many situation where basically you need to take out decision where you have a handful of the teams that disagree with teams at that salary. Because if everybody has all the common protocols standing on all the also data basically, that you have to take a decision in general. People are smart enough to pass on like he actually like the decision scriptures also. I've been using that elections are passed on. It's through that so success. I Artsy, like, honestly, I will never had that success if my team was not like as good as as they are on I've just been surrounded by people that were smarter than me also, when you just use a common pool of understanding on your own like, Hey, Ani, tell me what you think about the songs is that hey Sarah, like a tell me what you think about this on that on on you involve like a Justin or like, you know, like I've been working with so many like smart people. They ashcan like they will share the exact data point on agenda is just abuse. It's just it's just abuse like basically it's like okay, boom as abuse. Thanks, everyone for being spot as I have nothing to do with things like this, basically. So I should I should very fortunate, to be honest.
Anna Carey:Yeah, we're we are very, very lucky. All right here we're reaching the end of our of our interview. Is there anything that you would like to share with the group about product management or anything you want to share before we head off?
Guillaume Delgutte:No, honestly, like, just if anyone is interested to talk about like product management or anything or I don't see outside of like duties day to reach out to me, I would love to discuss that I'm always available on I wanted also to thank you for having me on the podcast today. I really had a blast. And I really love what Artsy Engineering Radio has been doing recently. So yeah, I was really pleased to be with with you today on. Yeah, I'm speaking too much. So I think it's time to
Anna Carey:thank you so much. It was really great talking to you. Like I said, it's really special when we get members of our broader team, not just engineers on the podcast, and I feel like I don't know I learned a ton. I feel like you we should have these conversations more often for the podcast or not. So yeah, thanks again for coming. And we'll see you next time.
Steve Hicks:Sounds good. See you. Bye Bye. Thanks for listening. You can follow us on Twitter at Artsy open source. Keep up with our blog@artsy.github.io. This episode was produced by Aja Simpson. Thank you Eve Essex for our theme music. You can find her on all major streaming platforms. Until next time, this is Artsy Engineering Radio