Kaja and Erik are having a well rounded conversation about wedding planing and mentoring and programming language ecosystems. Does this potpourri of topics raise a lot of questions? Find the answers in this episode. And make sure to sign up for the Ruby mentorship as either a mentor or mentee: https://firstrubyfriend.org/
Hello, welcome to Artsy Engineering Radio. Today we have an RFC episode, where we talk about everything and nothing. And my name is Kaja, I'm an engineer at Artsy. And today I have Erik with me in the podcast. Hi, Erik. How are you? All right. Good evening. From from New York morning. How are you doing? Kaja. I'm good. This actually got all the way evening yet. It's likelate afternoon 5:
20pm. So and it's still not dark outside, which is nice. I've never I've never been in Berlin for for your famously sad winters. But it doesn't seem like it's bad. Every time I've been there. I love it. Oh, it's horrible. And winter don't come in winter. I usually escaped in winter. And this time I was here for quite a lot. And it's really horrible and said, The only good thing is that my birthday is in winter and I had a massive party. And it was like what I think it was the best party of my life. Yeah, but you're having a party soon. Right? A big one. Do you want to talk about it? I have more thoughts on on winter birthdays? But oh, yeah, sure. We can come up with that first because it's an RFC episode. So we're allowed to say whatever we want. Yeah. So I'm from Chicago. I don't know the the latitude difference between Chicago and Germany. I know there's something with the trade winds that makes Europe much more temperate, even though it's I think further north than most of the continental US. But Chicago is famous for being cold. New Yorkers are, they could never take what what is normal in Chicago for winter. And my birthday is in February. So you reminded me of just basically my entire 20s resenting winter and resenting having a winter birthday that, you know, no one wants to come out, everyone's kind of just trying to stay inside of their their warm box and minimize the need to move to other inbetween warm places. I mean, around the time I turned 30, I realized I don't want to go through my life, like resenting the cold, or the darkness. And I just kind of made a conscious decision to stop hating winter. So I would like to experience a Berlin winter. I don't care if it's dark. But yes, I do have a big party coming up. I'm getting married. Next weekend. So more days. And it's been a long time coming. We've been planning it for for almost two years now. Wow. How's the planning going? Oh, there's, there's so much I would do differently. I think, yeah, where Where are you going to start i. So I'm my my partner and I have lived in New York for most of our relationship. We moved here for her doctoral program in 2016. And I actually lost my job right before we moved was my first job in tech. I was laid off, like several weeks before we moved, and I found Artsy, by complete luck, I feel very lucky that I wound up here and not at some like ADD or financial tech company that seems to be most of what people do in New York. But her family is from Texas, and her family is from India, we knew pretty early on that it would be a fusion wedding, but that we were going to need more help with the, with making sure that the Indian portion of the wedding was appropriately honored. So we've been planning a wedding, you know, since we were still pretty deep and COVID in Texas, and like doing a mix of of traditions that like we did not feel super confident in, in planning, especially remotely. So I had, I guess, lots of experiences connected to that. But probably the biggest, the biggest thing has been just like trying to take my problem solving brain where I'm used to looking for patterns and like writing them out as code and transplanting that to a wedding planning process that like cannot be done automatically. Sounds fun. You got married last year. Is that correct? No, wait, it's been more than a year? No. It was the year before last year? Yes, September 2020. To one we got married and that was still during peak of COVID. So and my husband was Moroccan We got married in May Morocco. And of course, there was the expectation to throw like one of this big Moroccan wedding parties, but we were like, we don't have the money, we have to hurry up with the papers because we also wanted my husband to get a visa and move to Berlin. There's our COVID pandemic, let's just postpone the whole huge wedding party and be married first and like, arrange our lives and then see from there, but I did have a really beautiful Hannah night. And Morocco were Momose sisters and his mom, they organized like an evening for me where, where I was, like, placed on a throne of big pillows, my hands resting on pillows and my legs resting on other pillows. And I was dressed up really beautifully in this like traditional Moroccan dress. And they ordered an artist that was like, specialized on painting traditional henna tattoos on these occasions, and she came, and it took like, I don't know, hours. And she just like was painting with Hannah and my hands and feet, while the rest of the family gathered around me and was like, feeding you cake and singing for me. And taking photos with me. And I was just sitting there happy and like drinking tea and eating cake and being celebrated as like a bride. It felt very royal and it pleased like all my narcissistic needs for being in the center of attention. So I was I was really pleased with that procedure. But I do also I don't know, like, I used to be not so much into weddings. When I was younger. I now feel like I'm too cool. I'm too punk for this. You know, I'm not the typical bride. Same thing. Yeah. But but now I kind of want to have a wedding. And I've been talking to my husband about this and thinking like the Berlin way of a wedding would be cool. I mean, the Moroccan way. I don't know if that's for me. But you know, you have to wear like eight different dresses and carried around on a golden throne. And there's live music and whatnot and 300 people and chicken. Yeah, that's a bit much. But like the Berlin weddings are very low budget, very fun. And very much like many festivals. And just with your friends. And I don't know, I'm thinking about throwing a wedding. Not sure yet. I recently actually went to our location and scouting a little bit. I was talking to the location managers. Let's see. Yeah, we talked about doing something more. I mean, I would guess that there's a lot of similarities between a Brooklyn wedding and a Berlin wedding, just like apparently Moroccan wedding has henna. We, we have the henna party and at least the tradition that my fiance's from what's called the Mende, and that will be next Friday night. So big family party with lots of henna. And same thing will be feeding will be feeding my fiance because she can't she's not allowed to move for a little while. But I had I had the same like younger punk. Like I don't need weddings, relationships should, you know it should just last as long as it as it needs to. And you don't need to make a promise that you're never going to let it and that sort of thing. I guess I've kind of my my views on that change over time. But even when we got engaged, the idea of planning, let alone like being celebrated. Having a big party still seemed pretty. Like the biggest obstacle to getting married at that point was not the commitment. It was the party. And you know, then I have to now I have to ask people to travel to come to this big party. I wasn't even thinking about the cost of the wedding just I don't want to make myself sound more humble than I am. But it felt like it feels like a big ask to have people like celebrate you. So yeah, I think that might not just psychoanalyze myself, but looking back on the experience of planning this wedding, and how I dragged my feet early on COVID gave me sort of an excuse there. I tended to take the wedding and like try to turn it into a series of technical problems to avoid some of the the just unfun grunt work of like inviting people, but also to distance myself from some of that, I think I can tell you upfront, like my biggest regret right now, and hopefully, this helps someone out there, it's I know, it's already helped someone who's planning their wedding because they saw me do it. And what a disaster was, we decided we weren't going to do postal, like physical invitations. Instead, I did e invites, thinking, you know, I can't be tracking down all these extended family and friends of our parents, tracking down their addresses sending mail to all over the place, it would have been literally days of of work, and the kind of work that I don't want to do, I couldn't get over the urge to automate as much as possible. But we ended up you know, doing just email invites, and at the number of people we were trying to do, and especially, you know, when you get into extended family, and people have varying degrees of tech proficiency, spam filters, etc. It was a disaster. We ended up having to follow up with like a instead of using the the evite functionality, just sending out an email. Of course, I forgot to BCC. So we sent like, you know, 200, some emails to everyone where they can all see the other recipients, just like amateur hour email usage. And that's on me, but not a great way to introduce your wedding. And yeah, like I said, since then, I've had a friend who's getting married and is invited to our wedding saying, like, seeing us struggle, so publicly to get people invited to the wedding convinced them that, like, they're going to just write out the invitations. So one point against tech there. I think the most beautiful wedding I've been to as a child because I used to be the flower child for most of the weddings of my mom's friends from high school. Yeah, and I've seen quite a few weddings, and the most beautiful one was of her best friend, Bianca. And she is an illustrator. And she made like, the most beautiful invitations herself. And they were so beautiful that people kept them as a souvenir of the wedding. And for me, that was like one thing that I particularly remember that I would probably like to do too, if I throw a wedding to make this like, really nice, cool invitations, and send them out so that people would have something to remember. And I think she really nailed it because she made them like, not kitschy at all, you know, like, they were not cheesy. They were, like, genuinely beautiful and well illustrated and like they had this black and white. You know, two pictures from a photo automat of two people of the two people who are getting wet, that were gonna get married. They were on a on a foam roll and during like fun, funny faces and like the design was the wrong bet it was so so cute. It was just like, and they looked so happy in the photos, you know that that's one thing that inspired me for like nice weddings. And she also she was wearing a black dress on her wedding. And she was super pregnant. And it was like just the coolest bride ever. With with a huge with a huge head with a sunflower in the middle of. I remember as a child, she's like such such a cool wedding. I fish, the black hat, and then the black wedding dress and the sunflower and just even as a child, I was just amazed on how beautiful she looked with a big pregnant belly. Yeah, I think I grew up with like a pretty, pretty standard view of weddings that it's like, it's always in a Midwestern church. And then you go downstairs to the basement and there's like catered pasta and chicken. And, you know, it felt so standard when I was a kid. And then as an adult, I've seen more and more creative weddings. And I think that that's one of the things that sort of changed my mind about you know how you can make it meaningful or unique to yourself like just those memories of a wedding in the past where the bride looked. Well, can I ask him if this was a German wedding you're describing? Yes. Oh German with a French husband and wife French husband is is the bride wearing white like the standard in Germany or? Yeah, pretty much because I know It's not necessarily like in India, so the bride wearing black was on its own striking. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, yeah, I don't know how much how much you want to talk about wedding stuff. But most of what I have left to say is honestly about learning spreadsheet formulas. Different ways, I mean, trying to come up with seating charts and imagining how I would do this, if it was an app, maybe I could just like do a quick Rails app and upload this CSV to there. And it would be easier. Those were probably all the wrong idea. But what it really took was sitting down and talking about things with my fiance and our families. But certainly lots of companies out there trying to make it work, especially seating charts, you know, you want to, I thought maybe I could go through my guest list and give them tags, because we can't just categorize them by one thing. Like, what family they're with, we want to also find, you know, who are the people who are most likely to drink? We'll put them together? Who are the people who, you know, from each side who like music, maybe we'll have like the music lovers table, it ended up being easier to just use our brains. Why do why do people have to be seated? Like they have brains, they can just see themselves. You don't need seating charts, necessarily. You can just like offer the tables. I thought that too, especially if you have enough space for there to be flexibility. Because no matter how perfect your seating chart is, there's going to be someone at probably every table who thinks like, oh, they put me here. Like they didn't know what to do with me or they. They put me with the grown ups instead of with the other cool cousins. I hope that I did all right, the weddings that I've been to didn't have seating charts, they didn't have a lot of seating anyway, like it was more dancing and standing around and not so much seating, and definitely not any charts. Like you could just sit down wherever you wanted. Yeah, so for me, that's, I've never experienced the standard wedding that you described. I've only seen that in movies, American movies. And, yeah, so I don't know. Like, for me, this is not reality. And like, I mean, I've been to a wedding, which was basically a barbecue in the park and courts back. Or, like, there were like, you know, drug dealers around dealing drugs and dogs running around. And in the middle of all of this, there was just like this barbecue, and this young couple getting married and like all of their friends and family members being sitting around in the, on the lawn, eating and like celebrating, and it was nice. It was just really a nice day. And I think they they were right, like they were really and why would they do anything else than that? Right? It's just, it fits so well. I think it was really great. A great summer day. Yeah, part of me wishes that I had been willing to. I hope no one listens to this, who would be offended by it. I'm very aware that I had a big window during COVID where I could have where we could have just done the wedding in a more laid back way with you know, dogs and drug dealers in a park. I think that would have been much closer to what we would have done for ourselves. We ultimately made the choice to like if we're going to a big part of the reason I'm getting married is joining the families and we wanted to do it in a way that would be meaningful and involve them. But we're still hoping to have something more laid back like that as well. Maybe when the weather gets a little warmer. I've actually been talking about weddings constantly for pretty much every conversation that isn't about checkout flows. The title of this episode, recording link has like mentoring as another topic in it and I'm happy to talk about mentorship. Oh, okay, well then let's talk about mentorship and very excited about it because I'm doing this mentoring with mentorship program that is called My first Ruby friend. And I was like really looking forward to talking about it because it's awesome. And I'm really enjoying it. And I want to share it so that people can also take part in it. It's caught my first Ruby friend, it's pairing up, experienced Rubeus with junior rubies, programmers, and it's organized by nd Crowell, who gave gave At the closing keynote at the last European Ruby Conference in Finland, and he proposed to all the audience to become a member and the mentoring program. So I signed up as a mentor. And a few weeks later was paired up with my mentee, Cassie, and she's amazing. And I'm so happy that I'm doing this, we meet every two weeks in a zoom call, because she's in a different city in Germany. And we started out doing some advent of code stuff in Ruby together and just pairing on it. But we have since already done like, a lot of other things. For example, we started reading together the book, seven languages in seven weeks, and no few, nobody is like, I have not heard of it. It's really one of the programming languages. Yeah, it's one of the coolest programming languages books that I've ever read. And it has helped me so much to understand programming in general a bit better, and to position Ruby. In this cosmos of programming languages, the book is built in a way that always starts with introducing the founder of the language and how the language was actually founded, and why, and for what purpose, and then it talks a bit about language. And then there are some fun exercises that you can actually do yourself with the language in order to try it out and see how it actually works. And then there's an interview with the founder. Yeah, so these are like the seven chapters, they're all built up the same way. And it's super fun, like the, everything's very short, like the chapters are kind of short, the exercises are very short and easy. So it doesn't feel like you have to do a lot of like, long reading and difficult reading. It's, yeah, it's, it's more like a fun experience. And I discovered my my love for prologue, for example, through the book. And I've read the book, like, a few years ago, and then now using it again, for the mentoring sessions, has me like rediscovering the book. Again, we're just so great, because I've already forgotten most of it. So it's also good for me to do the mentoring and learning so much. And we've also talked a bit about career planning with with my mentee did that was really interesting for me to actually understand how much or how much experience I already have. And I can share, you know, because sometimes, even if you are already working in the field for like five years, you kind of forget how much you actually already know, and you feel like, I don't know anything. I'm not good at this. And then once you talk to the person who actually really doesn't know so much, and it's the kind of at the beginning of learning all of it, you realize how much you actually already know. And yeah, it has helped me a lot in my confidence. And yeah, also, like freshened up a lot of knowledge. I've rediscovered my love for just pure Ruby, and like playing around with Ruby without any profit oriented purpose behind it, and allowing myself to just like, code the way I want to. Yeah, so this has been great. And it's a total win win situation. And I can only recommend to sign up for it. Have you already signed up for doing my first Ruby friend thing? Oh, no, this is this is the first that I'm really hearing of it. I knew that you had started a new mentorship program. And I mean, I've been a mentor in the Artsy mentor to new engineer higher sense. I've done some more informal mentoring of friends who are at a, maybe an earlier stage in their career, but the amount of structure that I don't know if the program has it or if you've brought to it sounds really helpful. I'm wondering, I don't want to get too into like the personal details of anyone that you're working with. But my impression is that this is that you're mentoring someone who's still trying to essentially get their foot in the door. Oh, no, she's already in her first job since almost a year now. So no, it's she already has her foot in the door. But the problem is that her work environment is not very mentor ish. So she works with mostly very senior Engineers that assume that she knows everything and, or that she doesn't know. But she has to like find figure out herself, and it leaves her feeling, I think a bit alone with the whole situation. And I think it is, especially in the beginning of your career, it's super important to have someone next to you who's like, no, no, don't worry, you know, it's not so complicated. I can show you don't like, don't be scared to ask questions and so on. And I had that when I was a junior I had actual mentor in the first job that I worked at, I was really lucky. But if someone doesn't happen, you know, they might as well find that somewhere else if their job. Yeah, I. So this actually is almost identical, except I don't have a structured program for this person. But the outside of Artsy, the one person that I'm mentoring right now, it seems like, very similar situation, got their sort of, I want to say first, maybe not technically first, but their first like full software developer job, it was going great the first year or so than the pandemic started. And between the switch to remote work, the fact that many senior people started leaving, they kind of wound up as this island where they weren't getting regular feedback, they didn't have the resources, they needed to continue completing their work, because they had lost so much of their team. They weren't getting good signals. And I don't mean like negative reviews or anything for management. But just it was clear that the company was not like, equipped to continue supporting them. And so this is my own editorial isation of the of like their work situation that I obviously haven't been in myself. But like, at that point, it seems like a very vulnerable position. To be a basically still junior engineer who's not able to learn from coworkers or from other people isn't supported. And honestly talking to you has me thinking that the answer isn't even for me to be mentoring them, it's for them to be searching out a more developed program, because it's clear to me from working with them that they can do the work, but they don't, they don't have like the industry experience to know what the next steps they need to take are. I mean, the the structure of the program is basically only that we get matched. The rest is my my own planning. And actually, my mentee is also great with coming up with ideas on what she wants to learn. So she came to the program with already questions in mind. And she was like, I need to train my art spec, test writing skills. And can we do that, please? So I was like, Yeah, sure. The first sessions, we're just gonna, like, focus on writing good tests. And we use the advent of code for that, because you need to write code to in order to test it. So I was like, let's just try to solve these puzzles, and write good tests for them. Yeah. And then we continued writing tests for the exercises in the seven languages in seven weeks book. And from there, we, I asked her like, because she was, I think we were talking about what to do with Ruby. And like, why not use Rails in the pairing sessions, or focus more on plain Ruby and how it's like, different from the work environment. And I told her that we could also do rails, but like, Ruby itself is already useful for many things, and that she could also come up with ideas, which little tasks in her life are annoying and need to be automated. And we can write Ruby code to solve that and, and she came up with a huge list. And it's so cool, because now now we're like starting to write little services programs, or I would say they are like mini apps that are solving these little annoying tasks for her and it's just, I don't know, it's it has like a whole new motivational twist to it now because she's like super into making it work and making it work properly. And for me, this is so much fun and for her I think too, and what I also like about it is that I have to learn mentoring, and I have to figure out what the best dosage of interferences during this pairing sessions because yeah, them Entering is kind of like teaching me how to how to step back and watch someone else coding and not interfere too much with just like jumping in with my own knowledge, but actually rather like asking them questions and guiding them more indirectly to the results that make most sense for them. In order for the other person, the mentee to fully understand the reasoning behind a certain design and the code. And I think that's, that's interesting, because like your inputs of seeing someone writing code, that will probably not work in a different scenario, or you know, that it will break in a certain way or you know, that this one doesn't catch a certain edge case, or there's a more, I don't know, refactored, refined way to do the code, the inputs is very big to just like, step over them and say, like, you know, there's actually a better way to do this, but as a mentor, you actually, it's better to hold yourself back sometimes and ask them, maybe like in a in a more, or maybe even let them have the mistake or the failure, you know, like See, see them struggling, like with an edge case and the code like not working with that. And, and then just Yeah, I don't know, how do you surf back and say, oh, okay, well, it doesn't work in that case. So maybe we have to rewrite the code a little bit, you know, so for me, that was also good learning to just, you know, understand how how much I can hold myself back from from overstepping. And I'm making sure to always collect feed feedback from my mentee in the end of the session of like, was this too much? Or was this not enough? interference? You know, so that for the next time, I'm, I know a little bit more, and I feel like, it's a good training? That's actually really good training? Yeah, yeah. I think as a mentor, getting the feedback, that seems like probably the, like, one of the easiest places to like, improve as a mentor. But also as, aside from mentorship, I guess, when I'm when I'm thinking about, like, what qualities I would look for in a junior when we're interviewing or that sort of thing. It's not that they're like that they're beyond a junior, I think that's okay, but can you like work through a problem, work through frustration, but also communicate your thought process and that sort of thing, I feel like those are, those are some of like, the early basic skills that would signal to me that someone who might not have like, a lot of professional accomplishments you can hire based on yet that they have potential. So just being able to, for for their sake, being able to sit back and let them in, like a safe space with a mentor, talk through their, you know, reasoning, and then iterate on it together, focusing on things like testing and getting unstuck. Those feel like really good mentorship practices. Because yeah, especially with something like Ruby, the standard library is so big, compared to other languages, like the the number of different methods available to iterate over something. Of course, like, if you know, the language, you could, you could say, like, actually, you don't need to use each there, there's already each with index and, you know, then you can inject and filter, it's good to see how someone figures it out, like, without all those tools at the, at the tip of their fingers. Yeah, and also makes you use, like, I think, during my mentoring sessions, I've been using a lot more of the variety of Ruby than at work, you know, because at work usually is pretty straightforward. Like you have to do, and usually you just add to a very big code base. So usually you also don't write like full programs, beginning to end. And yeah, I don't know, mostly like adding a field here, adding a key there, you know, but like writing these like full programs that have to parse something first and digested, and then, you know, like, do some, some new stuff with it in return something completely different. They require a lot more of the variety of what Ruby has to offer. And it was fun, like reusing all of these things again, and like being Oh, yeah, right. We have this method, actually, and I've never used it, but, you know, let's use it and also kind of makes you fall in love with Ruby again, you know, I think I've Yeah, I've been married to Ruby for a while. Like, it's not so fresh anymore. Do really You should but like when you, you know, you go back to the like exciting stuff. It's cool. Yeah, we all need to spice up our, our long term relationships to programming languages eventually. That kind of brought me back to something you said earlier about this seven languages book that I hadn't. I hadn't heard of it before. I'm interested now. Although I don't know if we have the sample size to really talk about it. I wonder sometimes about the different communities that form around languages. You know, Ruby, in particular, I would say I've gotten this impression as well about elixir. Seemed like they have like very supportive communities like geared toward mentorship. I don't want to name any, like other languages as having bad communities. But do you feel like that tracks with with your experience? And like I don't want to, again, I don't want to tar any languages as bad, but or does that come up at all in that book? I think they don't talk much about the community in that book, and that's a good point, which Yeah, I've heard. Actually, it's funny that you mention, mentioned Alexia, because I've heard developers actually saying that the reason why they are sticking to the Ruby community is not the language, but the community versus Alex here, because they were like, actually, the language is cooler. The Alexia language is much cooler, but I don't like the community. That's why I'm sticking with Ruby. And I think that Alex here is a bit less beginner friendly, for example, from like, the community aspect of it are a bit less welcoming. Well, I'll say my good impressions of elixir, then mostly based on on people I've known who are interested, but maybe anytime you get into a functional language, you're necessarily going to start finding more, more niche and difficult personalities. No, I think it's not the functional aspect of the language, I think, is just that Ruby was born with this pair paradigm of like, muscles. Nice. So we are nice. Like, this is like designed to make developers happy. It's a very, like, friendly paradigm already. And, you know, that created the whole culture around Ruby. Well, Alex here is like, very much focused on a different paradigm. Yeah, I think that that definitely has like something to do with the culture. And also that maybe Alex, there's way newer, and I feel like once something is a bit new and trendy, they're often like this stereotypical, I don't know, boys that form little boys club and want to just be like the first ones to occupy this thing and be like, ah, because nobody else is doing this. That's why I'm doing it. Because I'm like the first one doing it. And I'm hip and cool, as long as it's not famous. But once it gets more like, you know, popular and other people are using it, then it's not cool anymore. And I'm going to move on to the next cool new thing. I feel like with Alexia, sometimes it feels a bit like, more closed or community. And they're also way less women in the community, then I guess it's just a sample bias on my part, then that the people I've known had been most enthusiastic about elixir seemed like, like the exact opposite of that stereotype. But I know there was a time like in in Scala world, when the, like the mods of the scholar Reddit, were banning people if they talked about, like, certain proposals for the language and that sort of thing. Don't quote me on this on any specifics there. But there's definitely some languages that over time, I've become like, extremely wary of. And I guess it was just respect for people. I knew that like elixir that made me think like, Oh, this must be like, a functional language, but with the kindness of the Ruby community. Yeah, maybe. I mean, personally, the people that I've seen doing, Alex here, also, were really cool people. And I mean, I'm going to the Alexia meetup in Berlin next week, and I was there around Christmas, and I really enjoyed it. So I and I love the language. Like don't get me wrong. I think the comparison with Ruby is unfair. Even though the syntax is obviously inspired, yeah, I mean, it looks like Ruby, but it's completely Like the opposite, actually, as you would think about it, like the usage, the syntax, it's completely opposite. I feel like there could be a whole podcast episode just about different languages and their vibes. Like in Ruby you have is it being nice as nice? In? In Python, there's the Zen of Python and beautiful is better than ugly or something like that. I don't. I haven't committed that one to memory. But there's a lot to probably unpack there. I wanted to ask before, before we wrap up, what the name of your mentorship program is probably a good podcasting practice. But I'm interested to Yeah, the name is my first Ruby friend. And I will also post a link into the podcast description. So make sure to sign up everyone out there. Thank you. Okay, thanks. Yeah, let's wrap up this cool conversation about weddings and mentoring people. Yeah, thank you. I'm always happy to talk. I'm here. So cool. It's nice to talk to you again. Kinda. Yeah, nice to talk to you to see you. Bye. Thanks for listening. You can follow the Artsy engineering team on Twitter at Artsy open source, and you can find our email@example.com This episode was mixed and edited by Jesse maganda. And our theme music is by Eve Essex so you can find on all major streaming platforms. See you next time.